ASCAP BMI SEAC

[Greenfleamusic]

I wonder if anyone has had or knows someone who owns a venue who has had issues with the Performance rights people.
I have a friend who owns a Hookah Lounge / music venue called "Swing State Hookah Lounge "
upon it's inception The proprietor has always demanded originals. However.. the scarcity of original bands made it almost impossible to find enough to fill the bill regularly at the outset.
After a time, when the venue became well known it was premanently converted to Original only bands.
Now... the Performance rights people are leaning real hard on the dude and demanding their money in the form of a yearly fee of between $1,500 and $1,000. He refused to pay saying that they only allow original music, not covers. A fact which is true now.
But so far ASCAP and BMI have both taken the stance that " This was not always the case..and we want BACK PAY " plus the yearly fee.

Theyre threatening lawyers..
Is there a way out? Have you seen this?

The establishment recently had a fire.. ( I donated my time to do renovation ) and the place was struggling before that. It is one of only a few establishments who DEMAND originals. The integrity of a place like that is an ally for indie musicians. If more club owners had this policy , indie artists might actually be able to make wages.. and the Grammys might actually mean something.


Any input?

[jaymz]

Yup.

He should probably consult a entertainment rights attorney (which many times is free for the consultation), but this has happened before, most notably with JC Penny or Dillard's (back in the day) when they were sued for playing the radio over their audio system for a number of years. HFA came after them well after they had stopped this practice (I think they switched to licensed canned music or something) suing for back payment. They did some kind of estimation on what they believed the company to owe, and won.

Your friend probably isn't a major public retail operation, so the situation is likely very different.

If he really doesn't have any assets or liquidity potential, he can probably argue his point and get off. They just might harass him and utilize scare tactics, it cost them a lot of money to actually sue someone.

[Greenfleamusic]

That's a good point you make about the assets. Yeah he really has nothing. The place it just bare bones. No kitchen. With the punk bands coming in the place is torn up..LOL

I'll tell him. Thank you Jay !

[cjdenecia]

of that demand, on the part of these business bullies - if they have such exact figures in mind, why don't they present an itemized bill and a list of who they're gonna pay and how much.

and how they came to those figures and the breakdown.

bullshit. and I know there are those who tout these organizations as a friend to the indie cus they say that's the way they get paid but come on - that's an exaggeration at best. just more strong arm tactics by industry monopolies.

screw 'em. as in the past - they pretend to be the guardian for the musician but in reality, they're like a government body - existing and raking in money simply to exist on many levels and not happy till they've run every little guy (who's just trying to make a living and help others like him and benefit the community by delivering an entertainment to go with some drinks) straight to the poor house and out of business.

wish him well. I know my best wishes are with him and I curse both outfits - ASCAP and BMI ... friggin' crooks.

[Jay]

That's a good point you make about the assets. Yeah he really has nothing. The place it just bare bones. No kitchen. With the punk bands coming in the place is torn up..LOL

I'll tell him. Thank you Jay !

He's jaymz. I know, it's confusing. The twerp... he couldn't just be James, could he.

[Chris K.]

I did a research job for a venue several years ago. I discovered that regardless of whether a venue only allows "original" music or not they are required to pay the fee. This has only been successfully challenged once since 1934. In that case there was only one performer - it was a piano bar. The performer was able to certify that the only material he played was written by him, and he was not a PRO registered performer.

Furthermore, all the PROs, especially ASCAP hire local people to frequent local establishments to look for live music, and also to see if the ASCAP sticker is displayed.

Bottom line ... no one can really afford to NOT pay the fees. ASCAP is a monster and I've seen my share of venues shut down for non-compliance, personally and in the research I did.

[cjdenecia]

I did a research job for a venue several years ago. I discovered that regardless of whether a venue only allows "original" music or not they are required to pay the fee. This has only been successfully challenged once since 1934. In that case there was only one performer - it was a piano bar. The performer was able to certify that the only material he played was written by him, and he was not a PRO registered performer.

Furthermore, all the PROs, especially ASCAP hire local people to frequent local establishments to look for live music, and also to see if the ASCAP sticker is displayed.

Bottom line ... no one can really afford to NOT pay the fees. ASCAP is a monster and I've seen my share of venues shut down for non-compliance, personally and in the research I did.

a racket. hard to believe they get away with it in court.

[Greenfleamusic]

Not good news for my buddy. Say what you want about corporations. It's always a good idea to incorporate any buisiness you own.
The game is rigged. But there is a better chance for little guys that learn that game as best they can.

This is an unbelievable story. Organized crime.

[Chris K.]

The concept behind it all was once a good idea. It's there to protect songwriters. I get that. I've had more than just a few friends over the years who have lived off their PRO royalty checks. Problem is now the system needs a rework and there's no political will to make that happen. I have had to write my share of checks to these agencies. It sucks, I know.

[mistertroll]

cj and Chris K. sharing a point of view.








I never thought I'd see the day.












Did anyone else feel the Earth tremble?




















I'm just sayin'...

[Greenfleamusic]

A few years back I joined ASCAP . It was a requirement of a publisher. I joined ASCAP rather than BMI because I thought the letters stood for " I'll pop a cap in your ass if you dont pay my musician "

Turns out I was wrong.







In some respects.







I'm just sayin.

[charvie]

Not good news for my buddy. Say what you want about corporations. It's always a good idea to incorporate any buisiness you own.
The game is rigged. But there is a better chance for little guys that learn that game as best they can.

This is an unbelievable story. Organized crime.

Does everyone have their home studios Incorporated? Can it be used as a write off?

[cjdenecia]

Not good news for my buddy. Say what you want about corporations. It's always a good idea to incorporate any buisiness you own.
The game is rigged. But there is a better chance for little guys that learn that game as best they can.

This is an unbelievable story. Organized crime.

Does everyone have their home studios Incorporated? Can it be used as a write off?

generally, as a rule - NO. and the IRS will be very strict on determining your studio as a business and therefore giving you options to write off home studios. there does have to be some possibility of potential sales, profits. and you'd likely have to use depreciation deductions which would tie you into the game for 5 plus years .... then again, if it is a legit corporation and business is actually taking place with profits and losses, it's absurd NOT to do it.

but keep all reciepts and it'll be sort of like how they treat autos - it better be equipment for work only. they run an audit and find porn on your "biz pc" - you'd likely lose the deduction. or pics of your dog. or games. etc ...

you'd probably also have to keep an accurate work log showing how much time went into the "work" of the business.

none of this info tho, is professional advice - only generalities from having been in business and knowing how they work there at the tax prison. and from having heard that they are quite strict about what are normally "hobby" pursuits in their eyes.

[charvie]

That's some great info cj, thanks. I've always wondered how far it could be pushed with the gov.

[jaymz]

you can write off your expenses for your studio if you have at minimum a dba and are filling every year, assuming you using or have the intention of using that equipment for the business purpose of your company.

However, if you have less income to your business (such as 0) compared to the return you get from your deductions for a period of consecutive years, you'll probably get audited.

Though if you have all receipts and have been filling your income every year shouldn't matter.

Here's how this usually goes though -

Musician gets the idea to write off equipment.
Files at the local comptroller to start a business (50 bucks or something)
Prints some business cards (50 bucks)
Files 0 income the first year, writes off equipment, adjusts return and gets 30 bucks more back than usual.
Forgets to file on time the next year.
County puts a tax lien on subjects property.
Credit is ruined for a number of years.


NOT THAT THIS HAS EVER HAPPENED TO ME OR ANYTHING.....