Mastering Verb?

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Mastering Verb?

Postby icararse » Thu May 27, 2010 2:05 pm

CJ used this term on dikki dumdums song,hmmmm might have been Huds,anyways


When and how do you use it?
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby Mark Kaufman » Thu May 27, 2010 4:39 pm

It's reverb you might choose to apply across the entire mix, something done at the mastering stage when all the multi-tracks have been blended into a single stereo track.

We all do this stuff differently. When I read what the pros say, I've noticed that adding reverb at mastering time is not a typical thing...a lot of pros insist that reverb sloshed across all tracks is a way to ruin good sound, and that the better way is to get each track sounding good in the mix. Those who think this way will apply the same instance of reverb across buss groups--like one reverb for all the harmony parts--but they still feel each track needs it's own consideration. A bass, for example, might sound better without any reverb, even on a reverb-heavy song.

That said, I certainly do it sometimes, especially when I want it to sound like one band in the same room. But less is more, I keep trying to remind myself...of all the effects, reverb sure can be a hairtrigger difference between muddy and wide open.
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby icararse » Thu May 27, 2010 5:33 pm

Mark Kaufman wrote:It's reverb you might choose to apply across the entire mix, something done at the mastering stage when all the multi-tracks have been blended into a single stereo track.

We all do this stuff differently. When I read what the pros say, I've noticed that adding reverb at mastering time is not a typical thing...a lot of pros insist that reverb sloshed across all tracks is a way to ruin good sound, and that the better way is to get each track sounding good in the mix. Those who think this way will apply the same instance of reverb across buss groups--like one reverb for all the harmony parts--but they still feel each track needs it's own consideration. A bass, for example, might sound better without any reverb, even on a reverb-heavy song.

That said, I certainly do it sometimes, especially when I want it to sound like one band in the same room. But less is more, I keep trying to remind myself...of all the effects, reverb sure can be a hairtrigger difference between muddy and wide open.




Thanks Mark,I'll give it a try.
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby jaymz » Thu May 27, 2010 11:23 pm

It can be used and is quite a bit.. but not your normal reverb will do.. you need to be careful about mastering reverbs, they are meant to make the edges move without disturbing the natural reverb that may already be in your mix. They act like a coat of varnish.. a very light coat.. on certain genres, the reverb can be blended with your compression in such a way that only certain dyanmics have the matering reverb applied.. kind of a ducked reverb.
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby cjdenecia » Thu May 27, 2010 11:41 pm

Mark Kaufman wrote:It's reverb you might choose to apply across the entire mix, something done at the mastering stage when all the multi-tracks have been blended into a single stereo track.

We all do this stuff differently. When I read what the pros say, I've noticed that adding reverb at mastering time is not a typical thing...a lot of pros insist that reverb sloshed across all tracks is a way to ruin good sound, and that the better way is to get each track sounding good in the mix. Those who think this way will apply the same instance of reverb across buss groups--like one reverb for all the harmony parts--but they still feel each track needs it's own consideration. A bass, for example, might sound better without any reverb, even on a reverb-heavy song.

That said, I certainly do it sometimes, especially when I want it to sound like one band in the same room. But less is more, I keep trying to remind myself...of all the effects, reverb sure can be a hairtrigger difference between muddy and wide open.


no disagreements at all. it's almost always a "fix" for some other failings somewhere along the line in the recording/mixing process. which of course, because we're not making 6 figures a year doing it for a living, we all make from time to time. and the mention of trying to avoid having a bass verb'd is waaaaaay true. you want mud and a lack of clarity in your mix, verb out the bass. but don't think that cus it's nearby in frequency, it's always true for a kick. cus it's not.

but when you have no other choice to bring a song together - yeah, a little is too much. keep it as minimal as minimal can get. you really shouldn't be able to identify the verb in the master - you just trust that it's there with the little bit of warmth you've added - or by the the little bit of stark nakedness you've removed.

so - if you've done a great job of recording/mixing - you'll never need it - or you'll handle it in the buss method koff talked about. but what studio has the exact same acoustics every day 24/7? how about recording at home? did it rain today when you recorded live guitar? was it dry and hot yesterday when you grabbed the vocals? was one track recorded during the peak of the day with all the noise of the world pounding into the mic? and then another in the dead cool humid air of night? was it peak electric time or was the hum of juice negated by the silence of no heat, a/c, fridge, computer fan, etc?

experiment with it. if it sounds good, it works. if it doesn't, it didn't. it's the same with mastering verb. plus there are plenty of mastering tools/software that offer verb in it's bag of tricks. wonder why?
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby icararse » Fri May 28, 2010 6:32 am

jaymz wrote:It can be used and is quite a bit.. but not your normal reverb will do.. you need to be careful about mastering reverbs, they are meant to make the edges move without disturbing the natural reverb that may already be in your mix. They act like a coat of varnish.. a very light coat.. on certain genres, the reverb can be blended with your compression in such a way that only certain dyanmics have the matering reverb applied.. kind of a ducked reverb.



Thanks Jaymz!
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby icararse » Fri May 28, 2010 6:33 am

cjdenecia wrote:
Mark Kaufman wrote:It's reverb you might choose to apply across the entire mix, something done at the mastering stage when all the multi-tracks have been blended into a single stereo track.

We all do this stuff differently. When I read what the pros say, I've noticed that adding reverb at mastering time is not a typical thing...a lot of pros insist that reverb sloshed across all tracks is a way to ruin good sound, and that the better way is to get each track sounding good in the mix. Those who think this way will apply the same instance of reverb across buss groups--like one reverb for all the harmony parts--but they still feel each track needs it's own consideration. A bass, for example, might sound better without any reverb, even on a reverb-heavy song.

That said, I certainly do it sometimes, especially when I want it to sound like one band in the same room. But less is more, I keep trying to remind myself...of all the effects, reverb sure can be a hairtrigger difference between muddy and wide open.


no disagreements at all. it's almost always a "fix" for some other failings somewhere along the line in the recording/mixing process. which of course, because we're not making 6 figures a year doing it for a living, we all make from time to time. and the mention of trying to avoid having a bass verb'd is waaaaaay true. you want mud and a lack of clarity in your mix, verb out the bass. but don't think that cus it's nearby in frequency, it's always true for a kick. cus it's not.

but when you have no other choice to bring a song together - yeah, a little is too much. keep it as minimal as minimal can get. you really shouldn't be able to identify the verb in the master - you just trust that it's there with the little bit of warmth you've added - or by the the little bit of stark nakedness you've removed.

so - if you've done a great job of recording/mixing - you'll never need it - or you'll handle it in the buss method koff talked about. but what studio has the exact same acoustics every day 24/7? how about recording at home? did it rain today when you recorded live guitar? was it dry and hot yesterday when you grabbed the vocals? was one track recorded during the peak of the day with all the noise of the world pounding into the mic? and then another in the dead cool humid air of night? was it peak electric time or was the hum of juice negated by the silence of no heat, a/c, fridge, computer fan, etc?

experiment with it. if it sounds good, it works. if it doesn't, it didn't. it's the same with mastering verb. plus there are plenty of mastering tools/software that offer verb in it's bag of tricks. wonder why?



Thanks CJ,appreciated!
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby HUD » Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:30 pm

Interesting topic.

On the last thing I recorded, "You're Nobody" (buried on the tailend of the "Bésame Mucho" thread - somebody give it some lurve - please), which is two guitars & a voice, I played around with verb ("small club" and "drum room" maybe it was-nothing big) on the overall mix, and was amazed at how good the guitars sounded and echoey awful the vocal sounded. "Small room", which is next to nothing seemed right.

You do the verb after the compression I assume? I've noticed on verbbing individual tracks that compression can tend to yank the reverb upward & louder in the holes/gaps...which was a solid argument as for why to verb it at the very last.

However, also true that not verbbing any part needlessly (most notably bass since the silence in the gaps can be just as important as the sound) is a solid opposing argument.

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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby jaymz » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:20 pm

Empty a few emergency water bottles and put his head in between them to see how things sounded.
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby Jay » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:26 am

HUD wrote:What would 3rd Ear do?

Change the subject to taxes.
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby Diki Black » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:03 am

icararse wrote:CJ used this term on dikki dumdums song,hmmmm might have been Huds,anyways


When and how do you use it?



It's patented now and used exclusively by me...the other two sluts exploit and secrete it, just ask for a audio blow job and wha lah !!!

Hope that helps !!!
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby zxyz » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:24 pm

Huddelson wrote:
On the last thing I recorded, "You're Nobody" (buried on the tailend of the "Bésame Mucho" thread - somebody give it some lurve - please),

I haden't noticed it hud. Which make me thinks that there should be some sort of an invisible channel from the contributed songs of Audiopolis into the review forum (or similar) of AR.

..or , you didn't put it up for review?


____________________________________

Oh, back on topic.. soory ikcs..
I've found that minimal reverb (when necessary) on vox and guit/ drum tracks, gives ambience; The whole song being verbed takes a very steady hand, and none of this (or any recording) can be done under the influence,, (which is extremely difficult..But necessary).. my .01c
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby Krispy » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:10 am

zxyz wrote:Which make me thinks that there should be some sort of an invisible channel from the contributed songs of Audiopolis into the review forum (or similar) of AR.

For the time being, tunes uploaded to Audiopolis which you'd like listened to could be referenced here (at AR) in the Review Forum. Really clever people can embed the player in their post. :geek:
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby zxyz » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:06 am

Krispy wrote: Really clever people can embed the player in their post. :geek:

Kouol..
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Re: Mastering Verb?

Postby cjdenecia » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:15 am

zxyz wrote:
Krispy wrote: Really clever people can embed the player in their post. :geek:

Kouol..


actually, you don't have to be all that clever. you just need to occasionally access what's left of your brain.

just saying ....

as far as intertwining the review forum with audiopolis uploads, it's something gregg and I talked about back in the early days but we came to the conclusion that it was too intrusive. members will have to make their own decisions on that. smart cookies use the review forum first, tweak accordingly if they trust the review forum and then put songs into the contest (review cycle) but at no time do we wanna force people to put songs in the review forum just cus they upload to AP.org. we may eventually make it easier (or easy as the case may be) to do some few click moves but for now - it's good enough to just know that a band can upload and link it up for the review FORUM.

and that is an official site answer.
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